A controversial topic: What are the teachings of your religion that you do not believe in?
I am just curious.
Ako wala. :-)
sa roman catholic,
-yung baptism sa mga infants
-yung pagkakaroon ng mga images sa bahay
-yung Sunday ang araw ng Mass (sunday is derived from Sun God)
-yung Dec. 25 celebrated as Christ's birth (Christmas)
i am a roman catholic at wala akong kinu-kwestiyon sa aking pinananampalatayaan..
kung meron man, binubuksan ko ang aking isipan at inaalam ko ang dahilan.
Not all Christians agree: Is salvation by works or by faith?
for me, Salvation is a gift from God (and it's free for all). Because of His grace that's why we are saved. If you accept Him as your Lord and Savior followed by good deeds then you're assured you are saved.
Quote from: pinoybrusko on July 25, 2010, 11:40:16 AM
for me, Salvation is a gift from God (and it's free for all). Because of His grace that's why we are saved. If you accept Him as your Lord and Savior followed by good deeds then you're assured you are saved.
well said brusko! ;)
Quote from: pinoybrusko on July 25, 2010, 11:40:16 AM
for me, Salvation is a gift from God (and it's free for all). Because of His grace that's why we are saved. If you accept Him as your Lord and Savior followed by good deeds then you're assured you are saved.
So you believe that it's
both works and faith?
Quote from: carpediem on July 25, 2010, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: pinoybrusko on July 25, 2010, 11:40:16 AM
for me, Salvation is a gift from God (and it's free for all). Because of His grace that's why we are saved. If you accept Him as your Lord and Savior followed by good deeds then you're assured you are saved.
So you believe that it's both works and faith?
No. It doesn't work for the two only. There should be repentance also since most of the time we sinned. If you have faith and good works but don't repent you're still not saved. There's no perfect man in this world carpediem, one way or another, every single being is accumulating sins every minute. If you are a Christian, you will always be convicted by the Holy Spirit that what you did is wrong so you repent and ask forgiveness for your sins. This is the assurance of salvation.
Quote from: pinoybrusko on July 24, 2010, 03:50:24 PM
sa roman catholic,
-yung baptism sa mga infants
-yung pagkakaroon ng mga images sa bahay
-yung Sunday ang araw ng Mass (sunday is derived from Sun God)
-yung Dec. 25 celebrated as Christ's birth (Christmas)
Baptism of infants:Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church's practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children..
Since, only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to "accept Jesus" in order to reach heaven.
But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ's law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).
More detail is given in Luke's account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God'" (Luke 18:15–16).
pagkakaroon ng mga images sa bahay "Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches and houses, goes the accusation, they are violating God's commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31).
It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David's plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one's mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.
If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there's no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn't ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned.
It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).
"Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who 'transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God'" (CCC 2114).
The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know his Bible.
Sunday ang araw ng Mass (sunday is derived from Sun God)Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord's day, Sunday, instead.
The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.
"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as 'the letter that kills' [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished" (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).
"[T]he day of his [Christ's] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord's day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).
Dec. 25 celebrated as Christ's birth (Christmas)As we do not know the exact date of Christ's birth, the date of December 25 for Christmas may have been arbitrary. The Church could have chosen another date on which to celebrate the birth of Christ. One reason December 25 may have been deemed suitable is its proximity to the winter solstice. After that date the days start to become longer, and thus it is at the beginning of a season of light entering the world (cf. John 1:5). The summer solstice—after which the days start to get shorter—falls near June 24, on which the Church celebrates the birth of John the Baptist, who declared of Christ, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3:30).
wow very descriptive Jude. That's nice
sa born again naman:
- 10% tithes or ikapu
sa INC naman:
- Jesus is not God but only a man
Quote from: pinoybrusko on July 25, 2010, 08:33:23 PM
wow very descriptive Jude. That's nice
sa born again naman:
- 10% tithes or ikapu
sa INC naman:
- Jesus is not God but only a man
idagdag mo pa sa INC yung "tiwalag" kapag hindi nakakapag-simba... which is i think.. against free will...
block voting.. i think, deprives men of free will.
Quote from: Mr.Yos0 on July 25, 2010, 10:34:38 PM
block voting.. i think, deprives men of free will.
i agree!
Quote from: judE_Law on July 25, 2010, 08:26:46 PM
Quote from: pinoybrusko on July 24, 2010, 03:50:24 PM
sa roman catholic,
-yung baptism sa mga infants
-yung pagkakaroon ng mga images sa bahay
-yung Sunday ang araw ng Mass (sunday is derived from Sun God)
-yung Dec. 25 celebrated as Christ's birth (Christmas)
Baptism of infants:
Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church's practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children..
Since, only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to "accept Jesus" in order to reach heaven.
But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ's law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).
More detail is given in Luke's account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God'" (Luke 18:15–16).
pagkakaroon ng mga images sa bahay
"Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches and houses, goes the accusation, they are violating God's commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31).
It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David's plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one's mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.
If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there's no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn't ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned.
It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).
"Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who 'transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God'" (CCC 2114).
The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know his Bible.
Sunday ang araw ng Mass (sunday is derived from Sun God)
Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord's day, Sunday, instead.
The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.
"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian. . . . Which of these commandments would anyone say that the Christian ought not to keep? It is possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle [Paul] describes as 'the letter that kills' [2 Cor. 3:6], but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished" (The Spirit and the Letter 24 [A.D. 412]).
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).
"[T]he day of his [Christ's] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord's day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).
Dec. 25 celebrated as Christ's birth (Christmas)
As we do not know the exact date of Christ's birth, the date of December 25 for Christmas may have been arbitrary. The Church could have chosen another date on which to celebrate the birth of Christ. One reason December 25 may have been deemed suitable is its proximity to the winter solstice. After that date the days start to become longer, and thus it is at the beginning of a season of light entering the world (cf. John 1:5). The summer solstice—after which the days start to get shorter—falls near June 24, on which the Church celebrates the birth of John the Baptist, who declared of Christ, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3:30).
nice job jude!!!
hinde detailed ang Dec. 25 as Christmas day mo Jude. Marami nagsasabi na ang Dec. 25 ay lovemaking day ng mga pagans ;D
you remember the song, Give love on Christmas Day :D
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 15, 2010, 09:37:45 PM
hinde detailed ang Dec. 25 as Christmas day mo Jude. Marami nagsasabi na ang Dec. 25 ay lovemaking day ng mga pagans ;D
you remember the song, Give love on Christmas Day :D
^ maloko ka talaga brusko.. hehehe.. ;D
sige.. dagdagan ko pa.. eto pa...
Note the pro-life point: According to both the ancient Jews and the early Christians, life begins at conception. So if Christ was conceived on March 25, nine months later, he would have been born on Dec. 25.
This celebrates Christ's birth in the darkest time of the year. The Celtic and Germanic tribes, who would be evangelized later, did mark this time in their "Yule" festivals, a frightening season when only the light from the Yule log kept the darkness at bay. Christianity swallowed up that season of depression with the opposite message of joy: "The light [Jesus] shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it" (John 1:5).
Regardless of whether this was Christ's actual birthday, the symbolism works. And Christ's birth is inextricably linked to His resurrection.
symbolism? for me, di pede ang symbolism lang dapat may pinanggalingan na facts ;D it's like symbolism also for images in the houses to be reminded of Virgin Mary, Joseph and Sto. Nino as Christ. We don't need images at home to be reminded or to show off your family is religious to other people since God is everywhere. Nagiging sukatan kasi na pag mas maraming images sa bahay mas religious, I just don't buy that explanation. my opinion only. by the way, I'm Catholic ;D
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 15, 2010, 10:03:47 PM
symbolism? for me, di pede ang symbolism lang dapat may pinanggalingan na facts ;D it's like symbolism also for images in the houses to be reminded of Virgin Mary, Joseph and Sto. Nino as Christ. We don't need images at home to be reminded or to show off your family is religious to other people since God is everywhere. Nagiging sukatan kasi na pag mas maraming images sa bahay mas religious, I just don't buy that explanation. my opinion only. by the way, I'm Catholic ;D
well.. depende talaga sa interpretasyon at paniniwala ng tao yan...
kung sa tingin mo hindi naman kailangan ng images.. why not? hindi naman nire-require ng catholic church yan sa mga katoliko.
the sole purpose of these images is for veneration, not to worship. if you know what i mean.
Quote from: judE_Law on August 16, 2010, 12:37:44 PM
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 15, 2010, 10:03:47 PM
symbolism? for me, di pede ang symbolism lang dapat may pinanggalingan na facts ;D it's like symbolism also for images in the houses to be reminded of Virgin Mary, Joseph and Sto. Nino as Christ. We don't need images at home to be reminded or to show off your family is religious to other people since God is everywhere. Nagiging sukatan kasi na pag mas maraming images sa bahay mas religious, I just don't buy that explanation. my opinion only. by the way, I'm Catholic ;D
well.. depende talaga sa interpretasyon at paniniwala ng tao yan...
kung sa tingin mo hindi naman kailangan ng images.. why not? hindi naman nire-require ng catholic church yan sa mga katoliko.
the sole purpose of these images is for veneration, not to worship. if you know what i mean.
veneration? e related din sa worship iyon ;D kasi alam mo kung bakit ko nasabi? usually nakikita ko nagsisindi pa sila ng 2 candles tapos magdadasal sa harap ng images. I pray whenever I am in my bed, in my office, in my car, in my home, even when I'm in the toilet, etc. I don't need images for that.
di ba if you dont believe on the teachings mabuti pa umalis ka na lang
Quote from: joshgroban on August 17, 2010, 01:26:20 AM
di ba if you dont believe on the teachings mabuti pa umalis ka na lang
depende sa teachings. Minor lang naman yung mga beliefs na minention ko na I don't practice. Pero yung major teachings like Trinity, Salvation, etc andun pa din.
^^ tama si josh.. kung hindi ka na naniniwala sa teachings ng religion na kinaaaniban mo.. i guess it'll be wiser for you na lumipat ka na lang sa iba.. why stay kung sa halip na maniniwala ka o ire-respeto mo paniniwala ng religion mo eh.. ikri-criticize mo.. sa dami pa naman ng sekta ng relihiyon ngayon.. am sure makakahanap ka ng bagay sa taste mo.. hehehe.. ;D
to tell you the truth hinde naman religion ang makakapagsave sa atin kundi faith and good deeds followed by repentance. It doesn't follow changing religion dahil lahat ng religion has its own flaws. Hinde naman importante sa akin ang flaws, for me mas importante ang faith and salvation ko.
I already experience attending Bible studies and the like. I just observe mas deeper pa nga ang magiging pagkaunawa mo sa Bible kesa umattend ka lang ng mass every sunday na madalas pa naiistorbo ka ng katabi or malapit sa iyo ;D but I don't mind them kasi kaya ako nagsimba para marinig ang gospel ng priest, kumanta ng praise songs at magworship at hinde para pumorma, gawing eyeball place ng syota, para masilip ang crush, etc.
Nasa intention iyon ng tao na siya lang ang nakakaalam. Kung lagi ka nga nagsismba pero ang isip mo lumilipad useless ang pagsimba di ba? does it makes you a good catholic or christian? or masabi lang na katoliko ako?
actually, when we try to study the Bible intently, salvation is this:
faith + nothing = salvation --> good deeds/works
look at what the bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
it is actually faith that believes God's grace is enough to save any person from eternal damnation in hell.
hmm. well versed si ctan ;D
add ko lang ang John 14:6, I am the way, the truth and the life. Nothing comes to the Father except thru me - Jesus Christ
natandaan ko pa ito. this is so long ago already ;D
Quote from: judE_Law on August 17, 2010, 01:04:08 PM
^^ tama si josh.. kung hindi ka na naniniwala sa teachings ng religion na kinaaaniban mo.. i guess it'll be wiser for you na lumipat ka na lang sa iba.. why stay kung sa halip na maniniwala ka o ire-respeto mo paniniwala ng religion mo eh.. ikri-criticize mo.. sa dami pa naman ng sekta ng relihiyon ngayon.. am sure makakahanap ka ng bagay sa taste mo.. hehehe.. ;D
on one thought, it would be better to stay and be the agent of radical change within the group. :-)
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 17, 2010, 01:25:34 PM
to tell you the truth hinde naman religion ang makakapagsave sa atin kundi faith and good deeds followed by repentance. It doesn't follow changing religion dahil lahat ng religion has its own flaws. Hinde naman importante sa akin ang flaws, for me mas importante ang faith and salvation ko.
I already experience attending Bible studies and the like. I just observe mas deeper pa nga ang magiging pagkaunawa mo sa Bible kesa umattend ka lang ng mass every sunday na madalas pa naiistorbo ka ng katabi or malapit sa iyo ;D but I don't mind them kasi kaya ako nagsimba para marinig ang gospel ng priest, kumanta ng praise songs at magworship at hinde para pumorma, gawing eyeball place ng syota, para masilip ang crush, etc.
Nasa intention iyon ng tao na siya lang ang nakakaalam. Kung lagi ka nga nagsismba pero ang isip mo lumilipad useless ang pagsimba di ba? does it makes you a good catholic or christian? or masabi lang na katoliko ako?
exactly! but is that enough reason para 'wag ka na lang mag-relihiyon?
we all know what's wrong and what's right... and believe me.. hindi mo pwedeng pag-aralan ang nilalaman ng bibliya ng sarili mo lang... kailangan mo pa rin ng relihiyon na gagabay sa'yo at magtutro ng mga salita at aral ng Diyos. nasa bibliya ang kahalagahan ng 'iglesia' (am not referring to the religion but the church)
Quote from: judE_Law on August 17, 2010, 08:31:13 PM
exactly! but is that enough reason para 'wag ka na lang mag-relihiyon?
we all know what's wrong and what's right... and believe me.. hindi mo pwedeng pag-aralan ang nilalaman ng bibliya ng sarili mo lang... kailangan mo pa rin ng relihiyon na gagabay sa'yo at magtutro ng mga salita at aral ng Diyos. nasa bibliya ang kahalagahan ng 'iglesia' (am not referring to the religion but the church)
may relihiyon naman ako ah, Catholic ;D sabi niyo kasi kung meron lang din akong hinde pinaniniwalaang teachings might as well umalis na sa relihiyon. Kayo kaya nagpapaalis sa akin? :D Do you attend bible studies maliban sa pag attend sa sunday mass to enrich your knowledge? try mo, you will be enlightened at mas marami ka matutunan. This doesn't mean titiwalag ka na sa relihiyon mo. for me, di sapat ang pag attend lang ng sunday mass, as I've said earlier marami factors para maistorbo ka sa pagsimba at hinde mo marinig ang gospel like maraming bata nagtatakbuhan sa harap mo, may sumasagot ng cellphone o nagriring ang cellphone, may makikita kang sweet sa loob ng simbahan, etc.
Quote from: ctan on August 17, 2010, 08:04:06 PM
Quote from: judE_Law on August 17, 2010, 01:04:08 PM
^^ tama si josh.. kung hindi ka na naniniwala sa teachings ng religion na kinaaaniban mo.. i guess it'll be wiser for you na lumipat ka na lang sa iba.. why stay kung sa halip na maniniwala ka o ire-respeto mo paniniwala ng religion mo eh.. ikri-criticize mo.. sa dami pa naman ng sekta ng relihiyon ngayon.. am sure makakahanap ka ng bagay sa taste mo.. hehehe.. ;D
on one thought, it would be better to stay and be the agent of radical change within the group. :-)
in my opinion religion is who you are... we are talking about teachings of our religion... pinaniniwalaan mo ito the very foundation of your faith... for example ... the trinity. if you dont believe on it then mahirap na i absorve pa ang the rest of teachings ... hindi lang ways ang pinaguusapan sa religion kundi mismong personal na conviction mo...
okay.. lets put it this way..
how do you guys define religion?
do you view it in a political way ba o as an institution to boost your morality/spirituality?
meron bang religion in a political way? di ba magkasalungat nga palagi ang dalawang iyan?
Religion as per wiki is the belief in or worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
there are many types of religions; christianity, islam, hinduism, shintoism, buddhism, etc. broken down to different congregations or institutions.
For me, religion is man's way of reaching out to the Divine, or man's way of making sense of spirituality. Religion is a concept formed by man and not really something mandated by a divine Being. That is why, I do not believe that religion can save man from sins, because no matter how perfect we perceive our religion to be, it is still humanly devised. If we really want true salvation, then let God do the work.
Quote from: ctan on August 19, 2010, 12:36:08 AM
For me, religion is man's way of reaching out to the Divine, or man's way of making sense of spirituality. Religion is a concept formed by man and not really something mandated by a divine Being. That is why, I do not believe that religion can save man from sins, because no matter how perfect we perceive our religion to be, it is still humanly devised. If we really want true salvation, then let God do the work.
well said
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 18, 2010, 07:07:54 PM
meron bang religion in a political way? di ba magkasalungat nga palagi ang dalawang iyan?
Religion as per wiki is the belief in or worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
there are many types of religions; christianity, islam, hinduism, shintoism, buddhism, etc. broken down to different congregations or institutions.
of course there is!!! kaya nga nakikialam ang ibang taga-simbahan sa pulitika eh..
The term political religion is a sociological one, drawing on the sociological aspects of religion which can be often be found in certain secular ideologies. A political religion occupies much the same psychological and sociological space as a theistic religion, and as a result it often displaces or co-opts existing religious organizations and beliefs; this is described as a "sacralisation" of politics. However, although a political religion may co-opt existing religious structures or symbolism, it does not itself have any independent spiritual or theocratic elements - it is essentially secular, using religion only for political purposes, if it does not reject religious faith outright.[2]
religion is not really the problem ... yung tao ang nagpapasama nito....so we dont have to blame it for the unrighteousness na pumapasok sa heart at mind ng tao.. a true religion is really sharing our life to others and not centered on '"me and myself " trait
Quote from: ctan on August 19, 2010, 12:36:08 AM
For me, religion is man's way of reaching out to the Divine, or man's way of making sense of spirituality. Religion is a concept formed by man and not really something mandated by a divine Being. That is why, I do not believe that religion can save man from sins, because no matter how perfect we perceive our religion to be, it is still humanly devised. If we really want true salvation, then let God do the work.
same sentiment ;D
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 21, 2010, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: ctan on August 19, 2010, 12:36:08 AM
For me, religion is man's way of reaching out to the Divine, or man's way of making sense of spirituality. Religion is a concept formed by man and not really something mandated by a divine Being. That is why, I do not believe that religion can save man from sins, because no matter how perfect we perceive our religion to be, it is still humanly devised. If we really want true salvation, then let God do the work.
same sentiment ;D
I agree those some details but not all those details. We also have our share to work out our salvation. Imagine you did all kinds of evil living on earth doing it willfully and with all cruel intention and yet you will be saved? We need to work out to be saved. That's my one point.
Quote from: jaguar05 on September 14, 2010, 10:01:31 PM
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 21, 2010, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: ctan on August 19, 2010, 12:36:08 AM
For me, religion is man's way of reaching out to the Divine, or man's way of making sense of spirituality. Religion is a concept formed by man and not really something mandated by a divine Being. That is why, I do not believe that religion can save man from sins, because no matter how perfect we perceive our religion to be, it is still humanly devised. If we really want true salvation, then let God do the work.
same sentiment ;D
I agree those some details but not all those details. We also have our share to work out our salvation. Imagine you did all kinds of evil living on earth doing it willfully and with all cruel intention and yet you will be saved? We need to work out to be saved. That's my one point.
If you read the Bible, then you will understand when Jesus said that His grace is sufficient. Going back to Ephesians 2:8-9, it says "For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD - NOT by WORKS, so that no one can boast." When you work out TO BE saved, Jesus' death on the cross would have no meaning at all, because it is through His death that we may have life.
Teachings of your religion you don't believe in?
Marami bagay na di ko pa alam talaga. I believe our teachings in the church is truly undefiled. Purely biblical and everything is according to the teachings of God in the bible. :)
Let us see: What's your religion's stand on masturbation and premarital sex? What is your stand?
Sex after marriage.
Masturbation..depends on circumtances..depends on the intent.
Quote from: ctan on September 14, 2010, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: jaguar05 on September 14, 2010, 10:01:31 PM
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 21, 2010, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: ctan on August 19, 2010, 12:36:08 AM
For me, religion is man's way of reaching out to the Divine, or man's way of making sense of spirituality. Religion is a concept formed by man and not really something mandated by a divine Being. That is why, I do not believe that religion can save man from sins, because no matter how perfect we perceive our religion to be, it is still humanly devised. If we really want true salvation, then let God do the work.
same sentiment ;D
I agree those some details but not all those details. We also have our share to work out our salvation. Imagine you did all kinds of evil living on earth doing it willfully and with all cruel intention and yet you will be saved? We need to work out to be saved. That's my one point.
If you read the Bible, then you will understand when Jesus said that His grace is sufficient. Going back to Ephesians 2:8-9, it says "For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD - NOT by WORKS, so that no one can boast." When you work out TO BE saved, Jesus' death on the cross would have no meaning at all, because it is through His death that we may have life.
So kahit ano pwede nang gawin dahil ligtas na nga? Remember judas the traitor, naging apostol pa siya..peru hindi siya naligtas dahil hindi siya nanatiling tapat.
Marami kasing kaligtasan. Kaligtasan..saan ililgtas..? ililigtas sa kasalanan...after sa kasalanan...ililigtas ka rin sa parusa walng hanggan.
Yung sample verse, totoo yun. Mahalaga ang faith peru come to think of it... faith without works is dead.
James 2:26 states:
"For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also."
^^ taamaa sabi ni mariel hehe
for me, faith, works and forgiveness/repentance are the key to salvation. Not faith alone, not works alone.
Quote from: carpediem on September 15, 2010, 10:50:34 AM
Let us see: What's your religion's stand on masturbation and premarital sex? What is your stand?
im not sure what it is for catholics but masturbation is a sin because of selfishness and premarital sex is not allowed because sex is for married couples and must be done to procreate.
my stand? practical. kumakapit ako lagi sa scientific/medical side of things.
its in science that sex propels a relationship to deeper levels. masturbation may be selfish in nature but it can also serve as an outlet from problems/anxiety.
Quote from: jaguar05 on September 15, 2010, 12:43:07 PM
Quote from: ctan on September 14, 2010, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: jaguar05 on September 14, 2010, 10:01:31 PM
Quote from: pinoybrusko on August 21, 2010, 08:12:14 PM
Quote from: ctan on August 19, 2010, 12:36:08 AM
For me, religion is man's way of reaching out to the Divine, or man's way of making sense of spirituality. Religion is a concept formed by man and not really something mandated by a divine Being. That is why, I do not believe that religion can save man from sins, because no matter how perfect we perceive our religion to be, it is still humanly devised. If we really want true salvation, then let God do the work.
same sentiment ;D
I agree those some details but not all those details. We also have our share to work out our salvation. Imagine you did all kinds of evil living on earth doing it willfully and with all cruel intention and yet you will be saved? We need to work out to be saved. That's my one point.
If you read the Bible, then you will understand when Jesus said that His grace is sufficient. Going back to Ephesians 2:8-9, it says "For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD - NOT by WORKS, so that no one can boast." When you work out TO BE saved, Jesus' death on the cross would have no meaning at all, because it is through His death that we may have life.
So kahit ano pwede nang gawin dahil ligtas na nga? Remember judas the traitor, naging apostol pa siya..peru hindi siya naligtas dahil hindi siya nanatiling tapat.
Marami kasing kaligtasan. Kaligtasan..saan ililgtas..? ililigtas sa kasalanan...after sa kasalanan...ililigtas ka rin sa parusa walng hanggan.
Yung sample verse, totoo yun. Mahalaga ang faith peru come to think of it... faith without works is dead.
James 2:26 states:
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Diyan nagkakalabo labo kung hindi napag-aaralan ng husto ang Biblia. What you quoted from James 2:26 in its context pertains to a person's supposed status after being saved. In fact, the verse in James just answered your question regarding: "So kahit ano pwede nang gawin dahil ligtas na nga?". Real salvation should show real change in a person's life. So if you believe you are saved, but you still willfully do not "work out" your salvation, then it would make me doubt your salvation. However, God is the ultimate judge since He knows your heart. Now going back to the topic, I will reiterate what I've said before that good works is just but a by-product of genuine salvation. Real salvation compels a person to do good works, to "work out" his/her salvation and not be complacent.
In your opinion about Judas, remember what John 13:18 said: "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'" This means that Jesus knew from the very beginning that Judas will betray Him. God is still sovereign.
Anyway, to clarify things here: when I mention SALVATION, it pertains to being saved from eternal damnation, and that entails being adopted into God's family, forgiven and justified of sins.
So it's just really simple. Salvation is not of ourselves, it is of God because only God can touch and transform a human's wicked heart. Accept that you can't save yourself by yourself through good works, etc. Accept God's grace, His gift of salvation. It's free.
medyo mahaba pero worth reading..
"Does God care about what we do in the privacy of our bedrooms?"
Sex is God's invention. He is the mastermind behind it—and His creation is worth far more to Him than it is to us. This beautiful expression of love was created out of His own heart, as a gift to be experienced between a husband and wife. It is only in marriage that this manifestation of intimacy can be fully enjoyed in the depth for which it was created.
"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral" (Hebrews 13:4, NIV).
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge" (Hebrews 13:4, KJV).
The more beautiful and unique something is (like sexual intercourse), the more power it holds over our lives, either for good or bad influence. That is why it is so easy for the devil to corrupt the most precious of God's gifts. When we become more in love with the gifts than the One who endowed them, the things that were designed to bless us begin to destroy us instead. Yes, God cares about what we do with our bodies, in public or in private. He doesn't want us to abuse ourselves in any way.
In fact, an older definition of masturbation is "self-abuse." Although more modern dictionaries may no longer carry this definition, they are still linked together under self-abuse:
Self-abuse noun¹
1. Abuse of oneself or one's abilities.
2. Masturbation.
1 Corinthians 6:18 (NIV) further confirms this, saying that unlawful sexual relations defile our own bodies. "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."
"Isn't it still better to masturbate than to commit fornication?"
The easy answer to this question would be, "Yes, it is better to masturbate, because at best it corrupts only one person. It certainly is the lesser of two evils." However, why would a loving, holy, all-powerful God abandon you to a situation in which you have to choose any evil, whether it be "lesser" or "greater?" To really answer this question, we must again go back to God's original plan for sex.
First of all, masturbation will not truly relieve the sexual pressure that one may feel. It may for a short moment, but in the long run it only creates a deeper desire and capacity for sex, which will lead to more masturbation. If you let yourself become enslaved to a sexual high, you will find that you need to go to increasingly extreme acts to maintain the same degree of excitement. There are even ungodly sex therapists who recommend masturbation as a way of increasing sexual desire, not lessening it. This creates a vicious circle, like the junkie who craves a "fix," but is only temporarily satisfied. The more he indulges in his dependency, the more ensnared by addiction he becomes. This is the nature of all sin. That is why Jesus declared that all who sin become a slave to sin (John 8:34).
Furthermore, masturbation usually involves fantasy, visualization, and often pornography. The Bible is very clear as to what God expects of us in these areas of fantasy and lust. It teaches that we must not look lustfully at each other nor should we behave in such a manner as to entice others to lust after us.
"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look with lust upon a girl. I know full well that the Almighty God sends calamity on those who do" (Job 31:1-3, The Living Bible).
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:28).
While the above verses refer to men lusting after women, all women know that it can very easily be reversed to apply to themselves as well. Men may be more easily visually stimulated than women, but women can be just as vulnerable to sexual fantasy in the emotional realm. Both are sin in God's eyes, and both can be brought into subjection by controlling our thoughts through Christ's power.
All sexual immorality begins with a thought. A lustful thought not taken captive, will eventually lead to other perversions, because sin reproduces itself in increasingly greater measures. If we do not deal with our evil thoughts, they will take root in our hearts.
It is for this reason that God is so concerned with our thought life. Jesus came not only to deliver us from our "outward" sins, but also from wickedness that begins in the heart.
Since masturbation begins with sin in the mind, it might be called an "affair of the mind" because it brings about sexual sin inflicted against one's own body. Although it brings a short lived gratification, it makes one feel defiled when continued on a regular basis. In fact, it is a form of fornication because fornication is more that just sex with someone before marriage, it includes many other sexual sins such as pornography and the use of sexual toys for gratification. People who are not satisfied with God's plan for sex commit idolatry by using evil things to experience weird and unlawful forms of sexual intercourse. Some verses in Ezekiel actually describe this kind of fornication.
Ezekiel 16:15-17:
15But you trusted in and relied on your own beauty and were unfaithful to God and played the harlot [in idolatry] because of your renown, and you poured out your fornications upon anyone who passed by [as you worshiped the idols of every nation which prevailed over you] and your beauty was his.
16And you took some of your garments and made for yourself gaily decorated high places or shrines and played the harlot on them--things which should not come and that which should not take place.
17You did also take your fair jewels and beautiful vessels of My gold and My silver which I had given you and made for yourself images of men, and you played the harlot with them.
"Isn't God unreasonable to demand sexual purity after giving us sexual drives that seem to overwhelm us at times?"
Our loving God never demands from us what is impossible for us to do. We are so weak within ourselves that it may seem impossible, but He will equip us with His holy power to overcome any sin, if we ask in faith.
Of course, sexual urges in and of themselves are not wicked. They are natural. God created us that way. He desires that we get optimum pleasure out of them by using them the way they were created to be used. However, many desires for physical gratification (whether it be food, sex, etc.) stem from a deeper need that is unfilled deep inside us. Gorging our flesh can never fill a hunger that grows out of our spirit. Only intimacy with God can fill the deepest needs inside of us. No other created thing has that power.
God is no more unreasonable than any caring parent who lovingly disciplines their child. It is only because He knows what is best for us. He sees a mighty potential in each one of us that far supersedes our wildest dreams, and He loves us enough to do all He can to bring it to pass.
"I agree with all the theory, but living it out on a day to day level is another story."
This is the place where we need the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in our everyday lives. The Holy Spirit is not a vague "force," but the very power of God to comfort you and strengthen you against the sins that used to rule you before you were born again. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, we have the very ability that Jesus had to resist temptation. He depended completely upon the Father and so must we.
Something you must know is that God is not the one who is tempting you in this area to "test" you. God is on your side and wants to set you free from these things, not lead you into them! "When tempted, no one should say "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
God wants us to overcome every sin and temptation in our lives. Please slowly read the following verses and let their message seep deep inside your spirit.
"No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).
"For though we live in the world we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).
"In the same way count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:11-14).
"For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:15-16, King James Version).
"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God" (2 Corinthians 7:1).
"Can I really be set free?"
"In (this) freedom, Christ has made us free—completely liberated us; stand fast then, and do not be hampered and held ensnared and submit again to a yoke of slavery—which you have once put off " (Galatians 5:1 Amp).
If you are in a real struggle with any form of sexual sin, we do not believe it was by accident that God led you to this teaching. He wants to set you free, starting right now! We would like to share several things that you can do to break loose from this stronghold:
1. Confess this sin first to God, then go to a committed Christian you trust, such as your pastor. Ask God to lead you to someone that you can be accountable with, who will be faithful to pray with you and for you. This will take humility on your part, but it will lead to life. James 5:16 says: "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (You may not feel "righteous" but if you have admitted your sin to God and received His forgiveness, you are! That means your prayers are powerful and effective!)
2. Flee from and reject anything that aggravates this sin. For example, you may need to get off the Internet for a season or purchase software that blocks out pornography. This may sound too drastic, but it certainly is mild compared to Jesus who said, "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body, than for your whole body to go into Hell" (Matthew 5:30). His point was that we must be willing to part with anything that causes us to sin—even if it hurts temporarily.
3. You may need to seek healing and deliverance from qualified Christians who are anointed in this area of ministry. If you have been deeply involved in sexual sins, the devil probably has a stronghold in that area of your life. If you can, find some people who can help you stand against the devil, for he is the one who seeks to lead you into temptation, and whispers lies of hopelessness and shame into your ears. If he drops a filthy thought into your mind just when you are trying to pray (he has used this tactic on even the holiest saints of God), tell him to leave in the name of Jesus! Recognize his voice for what it is, and submit yourself to God. As you do this and resist the devil, he will flee from you! He is deathly afraid of those who are submitted to God in brokenness and humility.
4. Don't give up! Deliverance might take time. Self-control takes effort. You may slip occasionally—or even a lot. But remember that God loves you and He will be faithful to perfect His character in you as long you keep submitting to Him. Eventually you will win—and not because of your best efforts, but because of God's mercy (Titus 3:5). Just as salvation is received in faith, so deliverance must be received in faith. This has nothing to do with our character, strength, or failings. The only thing it is dependant upon is you receiving it in humility. If you should fail, recognize it quickly, ask God to forgive you—and then receive His forgiveness! He is faithful to do that which He promised, not just in a select few mighty men and women of God, but in all who are willing to come humbly before Him. That includes you! We want to encourage you to hold on to this scripture as your anchor:
"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and He will do it" (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).
^ Can you just provide a tl;dr direct version of your stand on masturbation and premarital sex please? Preferably in just a few sentences.
Quote from: carpediem on September 18, 2010, 01:35:01 AM
^ Can you just provide a tl;dr direct version of your stand on masturbation and premarital sex please? Preferably in just a few sentences.
naka-bold po yung mga nais kong sabihin...
ipinost ko na lang din para hindi lang yung naiisip ko kundi kasagutan na rin sa iba pang tanong re the Bible's stand on masturbation.
masturbation is a sin when you fantasize naked girls or actions. It depends on the intention ;D
Quote from: ctan on July 24, 2010, 03:39:18 PM
Accept that you can't save yourself by yourself through good works, etc. Accept God's grace, His gift of salvation. It's free.
I beg to disagree. Good works are very much needed for our salvation. In fact, apostle paul reminded all the brethrens in Philippians to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12
New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to
work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
So there's no way to be saved unless Christians will work out their salvation with fear and trembling. So therefore faith with good works is very much connected and essential in attaining salvation. In short, kailangan ang pananampalataya na kalakip ang mabuting gawa. Both are needed for christians to be saved.
Despite that the predominant stance of Christianity on masturbation and premarital sex being sinful acts, I see that people tend to make their own interpretations - "it depends".
Quote from: jaguar05 on September 18, 2010, 11:25:35 PM
Quote from: ctan on July 24, 2010, 03:39:18 PM
Accept that you can't save yourself by yourself through good works, etc. Accept God's grace, His gift of salvation. It's free.
I beg to disagree. Good works are very much needed for our salvation. In fact, apostle paul reminded all the brethrens in Philippians to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12
New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
So there's no way to be saved unless Christians will work out their salvation with fear and trembling. So therefore faith with good works is very much connected and essential in attaining salvation. In short, kailangan ang pananampalataya na kalakip ang mabuting gawa. Both are needed for christians to be saved.
@jaguar
i think you need to understand that for a dialogue to be efficient, you must read what your conversation partner has written. in this case, i firmly believe you did not do your homework.
let me repost what i've written regarding your argument:
"Diyan nagkakalabo labo kung hindi napag-aaralan ng husto ang Biblia. What you quoted from James 2:26 in its context pertains to a person's supposed status after being saved. In fact, the verse in James just answered your question regarding: "So kahit ano pwede nang gawin dahil ligtas na nga?". Real salvation should show real change in a person's life. So if you believe you are saved, but you still willfully do not "work out" your salvation, then it would make me doubt your salvation. However, God is the ultimate judge since He knows your heart. Now going back to the topic, I will reiterate what I've said before that good works is just but a by-product of genuine salvation. Real salvation compels a person to do good works, to "work out" his/her salvation and not be complacent."
In addition, let us study Philippians 2:12, IN ITS ORIGINAL CONTEXT.
First, to whom was the book of Philippians written? Mababasa natin sa Philippians 1:1: "To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons". What does this mean? Ibig sabihin, ang message ng Philippians ay sinulat para sa mga saints or the Christians, the people who have received salvation in Philippi.
Thus, if Paul would say, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" ano ibig sabihin nito? Una, OBVIOUSLY hindi ibig sabihin nito na "work out" or do good works to be saved kasi in the first place, SAVED na sila. Second, the phrase "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" implies a conclusion to what Paul has discussed. Why? Because of the statement, "Therefore". "Therefore, my dear friends.... continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". It is a conclusion about (all these can be found in the prior verses):
- conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ
- make my joy complete by being of the same mind
- do nothing from selfishness
- let each of you regard one another as more important than himself
- do not merely look out for your own personal interests
- Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus
So you see, the conclusion tells us an idea to progress to the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity. Ito ang tinatawag natin na "sanctification", a process which happens after being saved.
Third, the term used was "work out". There is a big difference when you say "work for". Kung work for your salvation yun, eh di ibig sabihin nun magsikap ka para maligtas. Pero kung work out your salvation, simply ibig sabihin nito, ipahayag mo ang iyong salvation.
Quote from: carpediem on September 19, 2010, 04:37:03 PM
Despite that the predominant stance of Christianity on masturbation and premarital sex being sinful acts, I see that people tend to make their own interpretations - "it depends".
:P
Quote from: ctan on September 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
@jaguar
i think you need to understand that for a dialogue to be efficient, you must read what your conversation partner has written. in this case, i firmly believe you did not do your homework.
Ano ba yung pinag ugatan ng pinag uusapan? You had mentioned in your previous post that...
Quote from: ctan on September 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
If you read the Bible, then you will understand when Jesus said that His grace is sufficient. Going back to Ephesians 2:8-9, it says "For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD - NOT by WORKS, so that no one can boast." When you work out TO BE saved, Jesus' death on the cross would have no meaning at all, because it is through His death that we may have life.
That this imply to your conclusion that good works are not needed for salvation. Gusto mo kasing palitawin base sa mga talata na hindi kailangan ang mabuting gawa para maligtas. I believe you had to make a stand whether is it needed for Christians to perform good works in order to attain salvation? Do they have to work or not or simply faith alone can save Christians?
Quote from: ctan on September 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
In addition, let us study Philippians 2:12, IN ITS ORIGINAL CONTEXT.
First, to whom was the book of Philippians written? Mababasa natin sa Philippians 1:1:
"To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons". What does this mean? Ibig sabihin, ang message ng Philippians ay sinulat para sa mga saints or the Christians, the people who have received salvation in Philippi.
Wala po akong tutol. Dios lang ang makapagsasabi kung lahat ba ng mga kaanib na kristiano na nasa filipos ay nanatili sa aral ng ebanghelio.
Quote from: ctan on September 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
Thus, if Paul would say, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" ano ibig sabihin nito? Una, OBVIOUSLY hindi ibig sabihin nito na "work out" or do good works to be saved kasi in the first place, SAVED na sila.
Save saan? Sa parusang eternal? Bakit sasabihin ni pablo na "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" kung hindi pala kailangan mag trabaho para sa ikaliligtas nila?
Basahin natin patuloy..
Mga Taga-Filipos 2:12
Philippians 2 Tagalog: Ang Dating Biblia (1905)
12 Kaya nga, mga minamahal ko, kung paano ang inyong
laging pagsunod, na hindi lamang sa harapan ko, kundi bagkus pa ngayong ako'y wala, ay
lubusin ninyo ang gawain ng inyong sariling pagkaligtas na may takot at panginginig; 13 Sapagka't Dios ang gumagawa sa inyo maging sa pagnanasa at sa paggawa, ayon sa kaniyang mabuting kalooban.
14
Gawin ninyo ang lahat ng mga bagay na walang mga bulungbulong at pagtatalo: 15 Upang kayo'y maging walang sala at walang malay, mga anak ng Dios na walang dungis sa gitna ng isang lahing liko at masama, na sa gitna nila'y lumiliwanag kayong tulad sa mga ilaw sa sanglibutan, 16 Na nagpapahayag ng salita ng kabuhayan; upang may ipagkapuri ako sa kaarawan ni Cristo,
na hindi ako tumakbo nang walang kabuluhan
ni nagpagal man nang walang kabuluhan.
Di ba
ang laging pagsunod ay kailangan ng gawa? May tendency na mahiwalay sila kay kristo kung magpapabaya sila gaya ng nangyari sa iba.
Hindi ba totoo na
kailangan ang gawa para lubusin nila ang gawain ng kanilang sariling pagkaligtas.
Kapag sinabing
"Gawin ninyo"...di ba
kailangan gumawa dahil nga may gagawin.
Hindi ba totoo
na hindi tumakbo ng walang kabuluhan si pablo at
hindi siya nagpagal ng walang kabuluhan.
Grabeng paggawa nyan. Isipin natin mga ka-pgg... Maliligtas kaya si pablo kung hindi niya ipangangaral ang aral ng ebangelio? Kailangan gumawa si pablo sa anuman kaparaanan pwede nyang maihatid ang balita ng kaligtasan.
Dahil kung hindi siya gagawa ay hindi siya maliligtas. 1 Corinthians 9:15-16
15) Nguni't ako'y hindi gumamit ng anoman sa mga bagay na ito: at hindi ko sinusulat ang mga bagay na ito upang gawin ang gayon sa akin; sapagka't mabuti pa sa akin ang mamatay, kay sa pawalang kabuluhan ninoman ang aking karangalan.
16) Sapagka't kung ipinangangaral ko ang evangelio, ay wala akong sukat ipagmapuri; sapagka't ang pangangailangan ay iniatang sa akin;
sapagka't sa aba ko kung hindi ko ipangaral ang evangelio.
Quote from: ctan on September 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
Second, the phrase "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" implies a conclusion to what Paul has discussed. Why? Because of the statement, "Therefore". "Therefore, my dear friends.... continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling". It is a conclusion about (all these can be found in the prior verses):
- conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ
- make my joy complete by being of the same mind
- do nothing from selfishness
- let each of you regard one another as more important than himself
- do not merely look out for your own personal interests
- Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus
So, ibig sabihin kapag
hindi sila magpapatuloy kalakip ang mabuting gawa ay hindi sila maliligtas. Pwede kasing
ma- discontinue at pwede nilang ikapahamak yun.
Quote from: ctan on September 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
So you see, the conclusion tells us an idea to progress to the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity. Ito ang tinatawag natin na "sanctification", a process which happens after being saved.
Sanctification..yun na nga yang... "KABANALAN"... peru meron pang proseso na dapat ma-attain ang mga kristiano..yun ang "PERFECTION" o kasakdalan.
Quote from: ctan on September 19, 2010, 06:39:38 PM
Third, the term used was "work out". There is a big difference when you say "work for". Kung work for your salvation yun, eh di ibig sabihin nun magsikap ka para maligtas. Pero kung work out your salvation, simply ibig sabihin nito, ipahayag mo ang iyong salvation.
Tingnan natin yung ibang salin...
Philippians 2:12 (New International Version)
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12 (King James Version)
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Mga Taga-Filipos 2:12
Philippians 2 Tagalog: Ang Dating Biblia (1905)
12 Kaya nga, mga minamahal ko, kung paano ang inyong laging pagsunod, na hindi lamang sa harapan ko, kundi bagkus pa ngayong ako'y wala,
ay lubusin ninyo ang gawain ng inyong sariling pagkaligtas na may takot at panginginig;
Pag sinabing
"work out"... hindi ba totoo na kailangan kang gumawa. So, kailangan ang mabuting gawa para sa ikaliligtas rin nila. Dahil ang pananampalatayang walang gawa ay patay. May mga naniniwala peru hindi naman gumagawa at hindi rin tumutupad sa aral na ikaliligtas.
Mga Taga-Roma 2:13
Ang Dating Biblia (1905)
13 Sapagka't hindi ang mga tagapakinig ng kautusan ang siyang mga ganap sa harapan ng Dios,
kundi ang nangagsisitalima sa kautusan ay aariing mga ganap;
13Sapagkat hindi ang mga tagapakinig ng kautusan ang siyang ganap sa harapan ng Diyos,
kundi ang tumutupad sa kautusan ay aariing-ganap
James 2:20 (King James Version)
20But wilt thou know, O vain man,
that faith without works is dead?James 2:20 Tagalog (John and James) Bible
20 Ikaw na taong walang kabuluhan, alamin mo ito: Ang pananampalatayang walang mga gawa ay patay.
Meron pala lang taong mayroong pananampalataya peru wala namang gawa.
Yan ang pananampalatayang patay. Hindi yan maliligtas!
Let's continue an intellectual discussion despite of our doctrinal differences. ;)
I agree with ctan;
Faith + Nothing = Salvations --> good deeds/works
Para sa akin ibig sabihin niya is, if you have faith you have salvation. Good works just follows.
If you have faith malamang you'll do good. If you continually commit sin intentionally, it is futile to say you have faith.
Nakakatawa naman ang logical sense mo jaguar. You will have to understand how to understand. You're making a conclusion like this: "apple is red kaya nga bulok ito". Does that make sense at all? Anyway, I've laid down my argument there. Someday, I'd decide if I would answer you in this thread or not. For the mean time, I'm moving on. :-)
Quote from: ctan on September 20, 2010, 10:15:52 PM
Nakakatawa naman ang logical sense mo jaguar. You will have to understand how to understand. You're making a conclusion like this: "apple is red kaya nga bulok ito". Does that make sense at all? Anyway, I've laid down my argument there. Someday, I'd decide if I would answer you in this thread or not. For the mean time, I'm moving on. :-)
Quote from: ctan on September 20, 2010, 10:15:52 PM
If you read the Bible, then you will understand when Jesus said that His grace is sufficient. Going back to Ephesians 2:8-9, it says "For it is BY GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this is NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT OF GOD - NOT by WORKS, so that no one can boast." When you work out TO BE saved, Jesus' death on the cross would have no meaning at all, because it is through His death that we may have life.
Simple lang naman yung argumento kung kailangan ba ang mabuting gawa para maligtas o mayroon ka lang pananampalataya ay ligtas ka na? I just raised my objection because you had posted a verse and made personal elaboration out of it most particularly highlighting the phrase
"NOT by WORKS". I think you did not grasp the point of the subject. Wala ka kasing malinaw na pinaninindigan and i think that's our difference. :)
You said it right jaguar. Ang paninindigan ko ay "NOT by WORKS". Hindi ba malinaw yun? :-) buti pa si Noyskie nakakaintindi. :-) God bless you!
I stand on my biblical belief that faith alone can not save a believer or a hearer of the law. It is the doers of the law shall be justified. I had made my previous discussion and this would be enough for now. Pagpalain ka nawa ng Dios.
Romans 2:13
American King James Version
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. :)
ay mgkakaiba pala mga paniniwala dito ;D
Faith without good deeds/good works is useless. Ang salvation ay gift of God to us. Since it is by His Grace, it is free for all. To those who only accept Christ Jesus as the Lord and Savior became children of God and we already have the right to call Him Father. To be fully saved, there are requirements: To accept Christ Jesus, to do good deeds and repent for our sins. If you only have good deeds but you don't accept Christ, you are not saved. If you only have faith but keep on doing bad things and don't repent, you're still not saved and you will not enjoy eternal life in heaven but the wrath of hell instead. Madali lang sabihin na tanggap mo na si Kristo pero hinde mo mapanindigan ang tuloy tuloy na paggawa ng good deeds kaya for every mistakes, we should repent and don't repeat the sins again ;D If you have repeated sins, don't be assured also that you are saved once you repent. God knows your intention if it is good or bad. So watch out ;D
Brusko, naintindihan ko ang opinyon mo. :-) para sa mga katulad ko ng paniniwala na "salvation is by grace alone through faith alone", we simply believe that genuine faith -- saving faith -- does not cherish evil. :-)
Quote from: pinoybrusko on September 21, 2010, 07:16:35 PM
ay mgkakaiba pala mga paniniwala dito ;D
Faith without good deeds/good works is useless. Ang salvation ay gift of God to us. Since it is by His Grace, it is free for all. To those who only accept Christ Jesus as the Lord and Savior became children of God and we already have the right to call Him Father. To be fully saved, there are requirements: To accept Christ Jesus, to do good deeds and repent for our sins. If you only have good deeds but you don't accept Christ, you are not saved. If you only have faith but keep on doing bad things and don't repent, you're still not saved and you will not enjoy eternal life in heaven but the wrath of hell instead. Madali lang sabihin na tanggap mo na si Kristo pero hinde mo mapanindigan ang tuloy tuloy na paggawa ng good deeds kaya for every mistakes, we should repent and don't repeat the sins again ;D If you have repeated sins, don't be assured also that you are saved once you repent. God knows your intention if it is good or bad. So watch out ;D
It is a requirement for a Christian belief to stay in faith until the end and the need of the good works to make the faith perfect. Kailangan ang pananampalataya na kalakip ang mga mabuting gawa.
James 2:22 Tagalog: Ang Dating Biblia (1905)
Nakikita mo na ang pananampalataya ay gumagawang kalakip ng kaniyang mga gawa, at
sa pamamagitan ng mga gawa ay naging sakdal ang pananampalataya;James 2:22 English Revised Version
Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and
by works was faith made perfect; :D